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[*MAFIA* Beatlejuice]

What are you saying here Gio?? And Lightning, you talk about God haters and that they are trying to prove that their is no God, but what proof do you have that they are wrong and that there really is a God??[/IMG]

I think Gio was saying was that he agrees with Lightning when he said that the way the world/universe works, how everything interacts, is just too perfect to be "random," and that it must have a creator.  Proof that there really is a God can be seen two ways, but they probably are not the ways that you are looking for:

1 - The Bible talks about the coming of a Savior (Jesus Christ) in the Old Testament, and it happened.  Jesus' life, the things he did and the things he said, is proof that God exists.  He was the son of God.  You can read about the miracles he performed, his teachings, ect. ect. in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in the New Testament of the Bible.

2 - Proof that there really is a God can be seen in peoples' lives.  I have seen Jesus radically change lives, including my own.  Yeah you're the same person with the same features, both physically and mentally, but spiritually you are alive and completely changed.  Things that were important to you, things that you did or said, lose focus, and your world is shifted to revolving around Jesus and living to glorify God, and not yourself.  I've witnessed people before and after they surrendered their lives to Jesus, and although it takes time, He does change lives.  To me, that's proof enough, but maybe you haven't seen it done or heard it from anyone so you don't really know.

To avoid another 9 page essay writing contest with Gwar about scriptures and beliefs and who's right and who's wrong and all that, I'll just end here even though I could go on even longer.  If you want to know more about what I'm talking about Koekie, or anyone else for that matter, you can PM me here in the forum and catch me on ventrilo.  Peace.

what gio was saying is that there is a God.  how do we know, it's called scriptures found, very very old scriptures.  they were then translated and voila you have the bible and the things that happened.  maybe u should read it one day. i mean it is possible for an almighty god, to create the earth in 7 days, remember 1 day for god is 1000 years, and 1000 years 1 day.

Uh, that's not entirely correct, but you are definitely on the right track my friend.

[*MAFIA* Capsloc]

Uh, that's not entirely correct, but you are definitely on the right track my friend.

what is it that is not correct.

[Koekiemonster]

I think Gio was saying was that he agrees with Lightning when he said that the way the world/universe works, how everything interacts, is just too perfect to be "random," and that it must have a creator.  Proof that there really is a God can be seen two ways, but they probably are not the ways that you are looking for:

I do not agree with you guys here, I don't see the World/Universe as too perfect. It only seems that way because it is "perfect" for us, but this seems logical to me, because our existance lies in this World/Universe, so it is logical that we fit in this part of the Universe nicely because we are part of it. Probably some other spiecies (life form) are not able to survive in our conditions but have a "perfect" homeplanet/World for them to live on, in a different part of the Universe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a God hater, I was raised with the bible, don't remember halve of it anymore but okay, I do know what it is about. It is just that somewhere along the line I got interested for other explenaitions aswell. I now see the bible as tales about morals and valeus or "livelessons" and pretty good ones at that. But I don't see them as real live stories anymore.

The spiritual explenaition you give me Beetle I believe. But does that really have to do with God and Jesus, or with the way our minds work. I mean I believe you can do anything if you set your mind to it. And what these people experience is really incredible, but I believe you can also get these kind of results without a God to believe in, aslong as you do BELIEVE in something enough.

I agree, lets not make this a long debate about whos right, besides there are no rights and wrongs when it comes to this kinda stuff I think. I do however like to share thoughts on this subject. One guestion I have is: If the Earth was created by a God, where did this God then come from, and could it be that he is a highly evolved Alien spiecies, and that there are more of his kind??

[Lightning]

Well for one this debate has gone on for centuries.  All I can tell you is I have seen people that have been addicted to drugs stop instantly.  I saw a man that had an infection in his leg.  The doctors told him it would have to be amputated.  He came home was prayed for and i watched the infection pour out of his leg.  There is still a hole there where it came out.  I am not trying to change the focus of this discussion but I have seen miracles of GOD koekie that you call tales.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a God hater, I was raised with the bible, don't remember halve of it anymore but okay, I do know what it is about. It is just that somewhere along the line I got interested for other explenaitions aswell. I now see the bible as tales about morals and valeus or "livelessons" and pretty good ones at that. But I don't see them as real live stories anymore.

  Maybe these things really did happen but society has watered  them down so much and told you that its not possible that now you believe it.  All I can do is hope one day you get to experience a miracle my friend.  Then you will have  a new perspective.  I had my miracle 14 years ago.  I will never be the same!  I am sure beetle can tell you when his was also.  My perspective is GOD based not WORLD based.  I am not scared to say I believe the universe came from GOD.  If you want to tell me different I will listen to what you have to say but I really do know the truth.  And all the scolars in the world can't change my mind because I have experienced the truth.  

Peace....Way to go Beetle that was some good stuff.

[*MAFIA* Capsloc]

see the reason why miracles, i mean the big ones, like moses opening up the red sea, or jesus resurrecting his friend, things like that don't happen anymore because it just wouldnt go with society, people would freak out if they saw something like that, back in the biblical days, back then cities fought to prove who had the real god.

[Koekiemonster]

Maybe these things really did happen but society has watered  them down so much and told you that its not possible that now you believe it.  All I can do is hope one day you get to experience a miracle my friend.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these things couldn't have happened, they could very well have taken place. I just think that maybe it doesn't nesseserely have to do with believing in God, as just in believing in something period. The mind is a powerfull thing you know. And back in the days people lived instinctively and where much more spiritual and in touch with themselves then we are now. And the believe in a God was much more "hardcore" than it is now. That way they were probably capable of miracles that size. I just think that the believe in a God is just one of many ways you could make unbelieveable things happen. I think it is just about setting your mind to it, and believing and wanting it so much that indead it really happends. Anyway that is the way I feel.

If I hade to explaine God, I would say that it is the energie in everything and in all of us, the way we can interact with eachother, the chemical reactions in this energie wich make us feel alive. This energie we can use to make things happen, that is what I would call God. The idea of it being a person just doesn't do it for me, sorry. I wish I hade experienced something like the miracles you talked about, then I could maybe understand it better than I do now.

[*MAFIA* KrautKiller]

I dont remember how to quote.

Quote Phantom "If you were pulled into a black hole, your body would look like a spagetti string and time would be so slow that you would appear to be frozen."

Thats not exactly true, a few astronomists came to a "theory",  And one of your previous statements said that the big bang was the only theory.

Theres also phenomenons just like black holes, these holes are called "white holes", these holes are just a as theory as black holes are.  Also einsteins theory of relativity gave rise to the thoery of the "big bang."

White holes have been talked about before, mostly as mathematical curiosities. There is no evidence these "anti-black holes" exist, saying that black holes exist is saying that the "big bang theory" happened.  The big bang has been rejected just like darwins theory that we evolved from primapes.  Even though scientists think that the universe was created around 12 billion years ago, doesnt mean that it will change around 2 decades from now.  

Also i made a A in my astronomy class last year  Im looking forward to arguing about this topic.

[*MAFIA* KrautKiller]

what gio was saying is that there is a God.  how do we know, it's called scriptures found, very very old scriptures.  they were then translated and voila you have the bible and the things that happened.  maybe u should read it one day. i mean it is possible for an almighty god, to create the earth in 7 days, remember 1 day for god is 1000 years, and 1000 years 1 day.

Hmm, you wouldn't happen to remember why all these gods were created in the first place would you?  The gods/goddesses, were all created so that the peasants/slaves wouldn't revolt against their lords.  If a lord told his people that Ares wanted them to take up arms against an enemy they would be willing to sacrifice their lives so that their god would be appeased.  The same theory goes for the biblical times,  Wasn't the Greeks wiped out by the romans?  Why didnt all of their gods help them?  Why did the romans adopt their gods?  Why did all the other races in that time period have different opinions of what the true god(s) really were?  Why did the hebrews have just one god, when the others had many?  Also, if God is the god, then why did the eastern civilizations worship their families of old?  When people die and they have their heart jumped, why dont they have a vision of gates?  IF you can answer all of those questions, then their is a god.

[*MAFIA* KrautKiller]

see the reason why miracles, i mean the big ones, like moses opening up the red sea, or jesus resurrecting his friend, things like that don't happen anymore because it just wouldnt go with society, people would freak out if they saw something like that, back in the biblical days, back then cities fought to prove who had the real god.

SO your saying that the mongols controlled a good portion of Eur-Asia because they disagreed on their beliefs?  Nope, they attacked the ottomans, etc because of trade disagreements and having their emissaries slaughtered.

[Koekiemonster]

Wow Kraut, that's a triple post without accually spamming, nicely done haha Also Kraut, you say the Evolution theory has been rejected, how so??

btw nobody has answered my question jet, somebody who believes in the existance of a God, explaine to me:

If the Earth/Universe was created by a God, where did this God then come from, and could it be that he is a highly evolved Alien spiecies, and that there are more of his kind, and also why not??

[*MAFIA* Phantom]

Refering to post #83: Leave me out of this kraut.

[*MAFIA* Capsloc]

Hmm, you wouldn't happen to remember why all these gods were created in the first place would you?  The gods/goddesses, were all created so that the peasants/slaves wouldn't revolt against their lords.  If a lord told his people that Ares wanted them to take up arms against an enemy they would be willing to sacrifice their lives so that their god would be appeased.  The same theory goes for the biblical times,  Wasn't the Greeks wiped out by the romans?  Why didnt all of their gods help them?  Why did the romans adopt their gods?  Why did all the other races in that time period have different opinions of what the true god(s) really were?  Why did the hebrews have just one god, when the others had many?  Also, if God is the god, then why did the eastern civilizations worship their families of old?  When people die and they have their heart jumped, why dont they have a vision of gates?  IF you can answer all of those questions, then their is a god.

1st Question...Wer en't the Greeks wiped out by the romans?   Yes.
2nd........Why didn't their gods help them?  Their "gods" did not help them because they were not real.  Unlike the former chosen "town" of god which was Israel.  Take for instance David, did he not defeat Goliath, and David had his faith on Jehova.
3rd........Why did the romans adopt their gods?  the romans were into space a lot and (making this explanation real short) they adopted their gods from their studies.
4th........Why did all the other races in that time have diff. opinions of what true gods were?  It's like now,  an iraqui might tell you ala is the real god, and then a cristian says no he is not.  it's just what people believe.  if you do research on this and then try something, you will find the truth.  you yourself will realize who the real god is.  some people are just ignorant.
5th.......Why did hebrews have one god when others had many?  good question, see there is only 1 god. how do we know, well he had a son name Jesus who spoked and taught people about him.  there were prophets that had visions that god gave them, dreams that god made them dream and also talking to angels.  i mean that's what the hebrews saw.  on the other hand, those "other" cultures believed in their own stuff.  but they never wrote anything like the bible to teach about how their gods made miracles and how their gods defended them, many times their so called "gods" that didnt exist let them down, yet they still believed in them.
6th i don't get what you wrote on there.
7th........... When people die and have their heart jumped why dont they have a vision of gates?  well normal people don't go to heaven when they die, tell me what are normal people going to do in heaven.  yeah nothing.  what the bible says that happens when you die is that your soul is asleep.  there is a text on the bible i forgot which one exactly but it says that living people have conscious of everything, but those that are dead are conscious of nothing.  meaning the soul is there but it doesnt do anything, does not go to heaven, does not go haunting people or anything.  who goes to heaven, well 144,000 thousand chosen ones go to heaven, they are selected by god to reign with jesus for the period of 1000 years.  those 1000 years start when Armageddon comes.  when armageddon comes those that have passed away will be resurrected to be judged.  during those 1000 years that jesus will reign over us, we will be on our way of being "perfect" once those 1000 years end, satan will be let loose for the last time and that will be the final challenge for those living on earth,  those who pass will be given the gift of eternal life.  those that mess up during that challenge will be destroyed for ever.  the bible is pretty interesting, you should give it a try once in a while.  anything that doesnt sound right, u can correct, i'm kinda tired so yeah.  gio can correct anything that's wrong in here, he knows more than me.

[*MAFIA* Capsloc]

SO your saying that the mongols controlled a good portion of Eur-Asia because they disagreed on their beliefs?  Nope, they attacked the ottomans, etc because of trade disagreements and having their emissaries slaughtered.

about this one, i didn't mean every battle was for that reason.

[giothermal]

Look you stupid and idiots. There is a god. If you think there is no god, then you are an idiot.  and think about it.

If we as people had nothing to hope for like a paradise and peace. you tell me what man has to offer. does man offer me evelasting life and peace. I dont think so.



And fyi= "Allah" means God. not the name of god, just god.

[*MAFIA* Beatlejuice]

IF you can answer all of those questions, then their is a god.

It takes a long time to really study scripture and know everything one is talking about or reading about.  Its not as simple as "answer these questions" and God exists.  Some things in the Bible are meant literally and some are figuratively.  We cannot even comprehend everything God does and means since he is the omni-everything.  And even after all that, you can do all the reading and studying and "arguing" you want to - but what it all comes down to is quite simple actually.  Either you believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, he lived a perfect life we should have lived and died for our sins, and you truly know, understand, and believe that, thus surrendering your life to him........or you don't.  Its called faith.  

btw nobody has answered my question jet, somebody who believes in the existance of a God, explaine to me:

If the Earth/Universe was created by a God, where did this God then come from, and could it be that he is a highly evolved Alien spiecies, and that there are more of his kind, and also why not??

That is a great question, one I use to ask and still do occasionally.  The best answer I can come up with is that God is eternal - meaning he has no beginning and end.  He has just always existed, so in a sense he came from "nowhere" because he has always been.   If you think about it though, the question cannot even be applied to God in the first place because eternity is a term that we use to define something that has no beginning/end.  But since God has no beginning or end, He has no beginning (get it?), therefore, He is outside of time, and outside of eternity.  Its weird.

To answer your "highly evolved Alien species" quesion, I'm assuming that these aliens you speak of live in the universe, and not in heaven with God, no matter how much they are "more of his kind."   You see, God created the universe.  But before He did that, He was just existing, and time had no meaning, no relation to Him.  So, time began when God created the universe.

what is it that is not correct.

Well, the thing about 1 day equal to 1,000 days.  If you're referring to the quote in 2nd Peter Chapter 3 verse 8, he says "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."  -  The key word in there is the word "like."  What I'm pretty sure he is saying is that our lives are just like a blink of an eye to God, since He lives in eternity.  They are just a speck, a dot, on an infinite timeline.

My Bible has these notes about that verse:  "God does now view time as humans do.  He stands above time, with the result that when time is seen in the light of eternity, an age appears no longer than one short day, and a day seems no shorter than a long age.  Since time is purely relative with God, he waits patiently while human beings stew with impatience."

Check out this thread I found in another forum, its sort of related to our topic:  http://uplink.space.com/showflat.php?Board=askastronomer&Number=428139