Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[*MAFIA* Scooby]

Wow! You can can tell your army man that no matter how stressed, "scarred" you are it doesn't give you a license to commit atrocities and murder under a banner.I seriously couldn't have antisipated a more predictable, robotic and contrieved response from somone whos been indoctrinated into the military and latterly brainwashed.
I know I have free speech, do you?
I expect more from you MG, pull your socks up.

[*MAFIA* Hellraiser]

I really don't want to be involved in this situation, but I will put a bit in.  First off, you can look at this two different ways. 

1.  As a private citizen, like most of you are then you will see all the bad that the news wants you to see.  How many of you have been to Afghanistan (I say that because that is the only place I have been, but I have been there 2 times)?  I think only 1 other person then myself, maybe 2.  I ask you that because in the year and a half I left and came back, I saw major change.  Did the news report on the good?  Have you heard in the news all the times we go to schools with supplies for the children?  Have you heard about the millions, yes millions, of dollars we spend to help that economy each month.  I know I was shelling out over 25k to locals a month that I signed for personally.  I have not heard about all the schools we have built, the roads we have created, the towns we have freed.  Also, have you heard on the news how many "civialians" that the Taliban kill each day?  Probably not if they are not a military person that was caught, or a figure head of some state.  I will tell you that the Taliban will kill a person quicker and more fierce then us.  Yeah we have killed innocent people, so have they.  I say we because all the nations that are in both theaters of operation kill innocent, however, since it is basically America's war, we get the blame all the time.  For each theater of operation we all have different rules of engagement.  People know that we are over there killing enemies, and most of our enemies are trying to kill us.  What are they killing us with?  GUNS, RPGS AND ROADSIDE BOMBS.  Tell me, if someone was looking for someone who is carrying a gun, and has the autority to kill said person, would you carry a gun and risk getting shot?  Probably not.  I feel sorry for the kids, they might not have had anything to do with terrorism.  Might not. 

The other way to look at it is through the eyes of the people on ground.  Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't a convoy coming through?  Now that drone, or whatever it was, was put in the sky to help protect said convoy.  The operators saw individuals with weapons to include and RPG, so they followed their rules of engagement and protected the convoy.  Would you prefer the people on ground to ask everyone who carrys a gun over there what side they are on?  Because that won't work, because as soon as you get within eye shot of them, they are shooting at you.  It wasn't the guy who fired fault.  He sent up the SITREP and got confirmation to engage from hire up.  Was it a mess up?  Yes.  Innocent people died, however, how many thousand of innocent people died under the tyranny of Hussan, and how many thousands of innocent died from 9/11?  I mean, people die, espeically in urban combat.  Shit happens, all we can do is learn.  It may be a shitty way to look at it, but I am sure if they didn't shot them, and they attacked that convoy and killed soldiers then we would have gotten flack for not protecting soldiers.  Damned if we do, damned if we don't. 

War is ugly.  It isn't meant to be pretty, if it was, it would be called a tea party not war.  Till you lived a day in one of those soldiers whose boots are on ground, then you really shouldn't pass judgement.  Just saying. 

[*MAFIA* BassSlappa]

*stands and applauds hellraiser*

[*MAFIA* Dune Surfer]

*stands and applauds hellraiser*

Just what is your ignorant ass applauding at bob?
This is a fundamental debate about moral standards. I love you like a brother Hell but even if your held down in the dirt under enemy fire there's no excuse for flying off the handle and recklessly opening fire on innocent civillians. It doesn't matter how battle hardened you are from any conflict, your ultimately responsible for maintaining a constant degree of professionalis m and must know you have peoples lives in your hands. I believe you do and and as a US army Seargent teacher I'm sure you hear these horror stories about US army conduct all the time and are no doubt slightly embarassed yourself from time to time.

[*MAFIA* Hellraiser]

Just what is your ignorant ass applauding at bob?
This is a fundamental debate about moral standards. I love you like a brother Hell but even if your held down in the dirt under enemy fire there's no excuse for flying off the handle and recklessly opening fire on innocent civillians. It doesn't matter how battle hardened you are from any conflict, your ultimately responsible for maintaining a constant degree of professionalis m and must know you have peoples lives in your hands. I believe you do and and as a US army Seargent teacher I'm sure you hear these horror stories about US army conduct all the time and are no doubt slightly embarassed yourself from time to time.

  I will not say embarassed, however, I do understand that stuff does happen.  This is not the first war where innocent people have died.  They have in every war that has been fought through out the years.  Does it make it right?  No.  Well if you want to think about innocent people dieing, what about all the soldiers of the nations that are trying to help free Iraq and Afghanistan from the dictators and the tyrants that held them under their thumbs, who kill innocent people whenever they like.  I mean aren't they innocent?  All they are doing is trying to help out nations and bring them the freedoms that every man and women is born with.  Have these soldiers done anything to deserve to die for another nation?  No.  However, they chose to help out because they want to bring said freedoms to a nation and it's people.  War is ugly and shit happens.  As I said, the news reports the negatives.  News reporters want the world to be worried, so that way you stay tuned in.  Would you continue to watch a news report if all the news was great?  It is safe to say, probably not.  You will be happy and move on with your day all happy because everything is perfect.  However, if you get bad news, you will tune in more to see either the progression or how bad it actually gets.  They want you to think their way.  I learned from the first time I deployed to not watch the news.  They reported on all the negatives, and yes they are true, however, the positives that we are doing in these nations out weights these negatives.  I am not saying taking an innocent human life should be down played, but as I said, they had freakin guns when they know there is a war in their nation and the "foreign invaders" are killing people who have guns because we think they are trying or might use them against us. 

[*MAFIA* BassSlappa]

Just what is your ignorant ass applauding at bob?
This is a fundamental debate about moral standards. I love you like a brother Hell but even if your held down in the dirt under enemy fire there's no excuse for flying off the handle and recklessly opening fire on innocent civillians. It doesn't matter how battle hardened you are from any conflict, your ultimately responsible for maintaining a constant degree of professionalis m and must know you have peoples lives in your hands. I believe you do and and as a US army Seargent teacher I'm sure you hear these horror stories about US army conduct all the time and are no doubt slightly embarassed yourself from time to time.

You do realize we're talking about a war right? and you're debating moral standards? LOL. Do u think the taliban and other terrorist organizations really have moral standards and wouldnt have done the same?

And i'm sure those photographers also have to maintain a degree of professionalis m, and walking in a large group out in the open like that with no security or distinguising marks i'm sure is not very professional.

The whole thing was an accident, the soldiers did their job and unfortunately in doing so killed a couple civilians. Like Hellraiser said, its war, these things happen. There are no morals involved.

[*MAFIA* Dune Surfer]

You do realize we're talking about a war right? and you're debating moral standards? LOL. Do u think the taliban and other terrorist organizations really have moral standards and wouldnt have done the same?

So your saying because the Taliban and other terrorists have no quarms or any problem with killing civillians, the US army should behave like the Taliban do in combat and shoot civillians? So these terrorists who blow up market places filled with civillians with bombs have the same moral standards as the US army do during wartime? Because I doubt the US army is ordered to place I.E.D's on dirtpaths to blow up goat herders.

There are no morals involved

There are no moral standards during war? The Geneva convention and all warcrime trials are all a myth then I suppose? Half the excuse for the invasion of Iraq in the end was because Saddam and half his bath party were guilty of "war crimes". No moral standards during war w/e

[*MAFIA* MisfiT]

I doubt the US army is ordered to place I.E.D's on dirtpaths to blow up goat herders.

They had BETTER not be. 

[*MAFIA* Hellraiser]

So your saying because the Taliban and other terrorists have no quarms or any problem with killing civillians, the US army should behave like the Taliban do in combat and shoot civillians? So these terrorists who blow up market places filled with civillians with bombs have the same moral standards as the US army do during wartime? Because I doubt the US army is ordered to place I.E.D's on dirtpaths to blow up goat herders.There are no moral standards during war? The Geneva convention and all warcrime trials are all a myth then I suppose? Half the excuse for the invasion of Iraq in the end was because Saddam and half his bath party were guilty of "war crimes". No moral standards during war w/e

  You seem to be forgetting alot of other nations there.  Yes America has the most soldiers there, however, I know the first time I was there, the locals feared the Romainians, and the last time I was there, they feared the Canadians.  Yes I said they feared the Canadians, lol. 

[Loaded]

When other countries see as many deaths as the US, then go ahead and bitch and cry about war time mistake, until then get over it.

Iraq Coalition Military Fatalities By Year
Year   US   UK   Other   Total
2003   486   53   41   580
2004   849   22   35   906
2005   846   23   28   897
2006   822   29   21   872
2007   904   47   10   961
2008   314   4   4   322
2009   149   1   0   150
2010   20   0   0   20
Total   4390   179   139   4708

Afghanistan Coalition Military Fatalities By Year
Year   US   UK   Other   Total
2001   12   0   0   12
2002   49   3   17   69
2003   48   0   9   57
2004   52   1   7   60
2005   99   1   31   131
2006   98   39   54   191
2007   117   42   73   232
2008   155   51   89   295
2009   316   108   96   520
2010   91   36   21   148
Total   1037   281   397   1715

When other countries deploy as many soldiers as the US, then go ahead and bitch and cry about war time mistake, until then get over it. Only then will you see the same mistakes being shown on the news by other countries. When you have 80%+ (the USA) more then the other countries fighting in a war zone what in the hell do you think is going to happen, mistakes.

I am just sick of others pointing fingers at the USA for what happens over there, the bad, never the good and it doesn't help when the countries they live in have a few hundred, a few thousand or NONE in the same war zone. No place to talk, none what so ever.

[*MAFIA* Manowar]

parts of a story showing what selective editing can do. 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/07/military-raises-questions-credibility-leaked-iraq-shooting-video/?test=latestnews

The problem, according to many who have viewed the video, is that WikiLeaks appears to have done selective editing that tells only half the story. For instance, the Web site takes special care to slow down the video and identify the two photographers and the cameras they are carrying.

However, the Web site does not slow down the video to show that at least one man in that group was carrying a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, a clearly visible weapon that runs nearly two-thirds the length of his body.

WikiLeaks also does not point out that at least one man was carrying an AK-47 assault rifle. He is seen swinging the weapon below his waist while standing next to the man holding the RPG.

"It gives you a limited perspective," said Capt. Jack Hanzlik, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command. "The video only tells you a portion of the activity that was happening that day. Just from watching that video, people cannot understand the complex battles that occurred. You are seeing only a very narrow picture of the events."

Hanzlik said images gathered during a military investigation of the incident show multiple weapons around the dead bodies in the courtyard, including at least three RPGs.

"Our forces were engaged in combat all that day with individuals that fit the description of the men in that video. Their age, their weapons, and the fact that they were within the distance of the forces that had been engaged made it apparent these guys were potentially a threat," Hanzlik said.

Military officials have also pointed out that the men in the video are the only people visible on those streets. That indicated something was going on and that these individuals still felt they could walk freely, one official told Fox News.



Julian Assange, a WikiLeaks editor, acknowledged to Fox News in an interview Tuesday evening that "it's likely some of the individuals seen in the video were carrying weapons."

[*MAFIA* Scooby]

parts of a story showing what selective editing can do. 

FOX News.
Well, there's the problem Mano.

[*MAFIA* Hellraiser]

Hey wait, where is France on that list Reloaded???????

[*MAFIA* Dempy]

Hey wait, where is France on that list Reloaded???????

Iraq Coalition Military Fatalities By Year
Year   US       UK       Other    FRANCE         Total
2003   486     53       41              0              580
2004   849     22       35              0              906
2005   846     23       28              0              897
2006   822     29       21              0              872
2007   904     47       10              0               961
2008   314      4         4              0               322
2009   149      1         0              0               150
2010   20       0           0             0                20
Total   4390   179      139      UNWANTED       4708
 
Afghanistan Coalition Military Fatalities By Year
Year   US        UK   Other    FRANCE      Total
2001   12        0        0          0             12
2002   49        3        17         0            69
2003   48        0          9         0             57
2004   52        1         7          0             60
2005   99        1         31        0            131
2006   98       39       54         0             191
2007   117      42      73         0             232
2008   155      51      89         0             295
2009   316     108     96         0             520
2010   91        36       21        0              148
Total   1037    281     397   UNWANTED   1715

[*MAFIA* Manowar]

Hey wait, where is France on that list Reloaded???????

Go to 1:30 for the short version but I would watch it all.  

The French just don't have the heart to fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edPiYNyxfKc