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[*MAFIA* KrautKiller]

Well I think I still need to go into religion...

[ICEMAN]

Well I think I still need to go into religion...

like discussion on this forum? or look into it? or both?


I'm up for anything, I love these types of discussions.

[Lightning]

Kraut I think yor are very correct on the religion part.  

Kraut:
I may not totally under stand you Kraut but I think the reference to the Boston tea party is a little flip flopped.  We the people were fighting our Govt. (England).  In Iraq the people are not fighting the Govt.  We have removed a Govt. that not only killed its people but has attacked the US and its allies, namely Isreal.  I don't think the people are terrorists but the Govt that ran the country was and there was no way for the people to fight the Govt or change it.  So if you want to say Bush is a terrorist then he will be gone at the end of his term.  Don't call the people of the US terrorists.  If all we did was assist in stopping attacks from the Govt of Iraq on its people and the surrounding countries then we did a good thing.  

Iceman:
Form reading you posts Ice I get the feeling you are hearing a lot from an Instructor that is against the war.  I my be wrong but you also need to look at both sides.  There is bad and good in this war.  You can be a pecimist or optimist.  Maybe there weren't giant WMD's, but there was definatly a threat to mankind.  If we are terrorists we wouldn't be giving the country back to its people. Same with the Oil issue.  We would keep control of the country don't you think.  Ohh yeah Muslims dont believe in the Koran that would be the Jews.  If you really want to know about the beginning of the conflict between Muslim and Jews get any Bible out that contains the Pentatuche and read Genesis 16.  This started the war way back when.  I am not saying you are wrong, I am just stating that there are others that have another opinion other than yours.  I think if you want people to respect your opinion than you have to be willing to respect their's.  There must be common ground here somewhere.  And last time I checked Bush wasn't GOD so he is entiteled to make a few mistakes.  

[ICEMAN]

Iceman:
Form reading you posts Ice I get the feeling you are hearing a lot from an Instructor that is against the war.  I my be wrong but you also need to look at both sides.  There is bad and good in this war.

Woh man, I think you're barking up the wrong tree about viewing both sides.  That's only what I've been preaching the whole time.  In the beginning, I stated I understand the good that has been done by going into Iraq, but for the purpose of discussion in this thread, I will be taking the side of the overwhelming negatives surrounding the war.

Now what I say to you, is that I think you need to look at both sides of the war.  Don't look at it from only the US point of view, but look at it as an Iraqi.  Think about what the affects appear to you, and what actions the US are taking against you.  Observing the good and bad from the US side is still one point of view.  You need to observe the good and bad from Iraq.

And last time I checked Bush wasn't GOD so he is entiteled to make a few mistakes.  

A few mistakes yes, every leader is.  His mistakes ride into the thousands.  He is not a good leader.  The people of the US are terrorists, for electing a terrorist minded leader.  We so-called invaded Iraq for supporting terrorists.  Well if it's ok to claim Bush is a terrorist, then we can also blame his supporters, the US citizens.


A nuclear bomb, is no mistake.  A nuclear bomb, is sheer ignorence and bad judgement.

The thing about people have other views than my own... uhh... dude... sweet, what's mine say?  That's the whole purpose of a discussion and debate.  How could we be debating this right now, if there weren't multiple opinions.  I believe that part is apparent.


And no... The Koran is an Islamic holy book which expresses the actual, literal, factual words of God, that were revealed to us by the prophet Muhammed, from his visions of the angel Gabriel.  I'm atheist, but I know my texts.

[*MAFIA* Wasserfaller]

HOLY CRAP! Out of the blue, kraut strikes his fist down and owned that noob marine! HOT DAMN! This is some entertaining stuff!

lighting--i concur about the religious issues, but bush had made more than a few mistakes. There hasn't been a justafiable war since WWII when there were easy to see "badguys" and goodguys." This is just the middle eastern Vietnam and we won't "win" this war either. We'll eventually end up pulling out after setting up a rickety democracy there which will crumble in the next 5 years. How depressing.

[Lightning]

Wasser this is by no means Vietnam!  

Ice I stand corrected I was thinking of the Torah.  I do on the other had think that our founding fathers are the same as the Irag people. We were both led by a tyrant.  We had the luck if you wanna call it that of having the tyrant thousands of miles away.  If you remember the French are the ones that helped us.  It took a long time for supplies and armies to cross the ocean.  The tyrant lived among the people in Iraq.  If I were Iraqi I would feel blessed that another Country would take the chance of alienating itself to help the little people by assisting in removing a tyrant from power.  I work with many people that are reservists that have been called up to go fight.  Amazingly they all come back and say the same thing.  The Iraqi people are greatful that we are there to help them to create a govt that gives them a voice.  But thats not what Democrats want.  They want complete Govt. control of everything!  Democrats think you are not smart enough to take care of yourself thus you need them to take care of you.  I guess a lot of your and my opinion comes down to where we get information.  The Liberal madia sways towards there side.  But the people that are on the ground report something different.  I am incline to believe my personal friends over a reporter that is trying to make a name for himself/herself.  Better be P.C. here.  

Since you know your texts then you shold know that Muslims think they are the supreme race of GOD through Ishmael.  The Christian belief is just the opposite in that the Jews are the Chosen race through Isaac.  Muslims believe all other people are benieth them and need to be destroyed.

[iLLUSi0N]

The Qur'an (or Koran as you guys are using it) is not Jewish. It's Muslim.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

You must be thinking of the Torah.

[*MAFIA* KrautKiller]

Well actually lightning, your points of view on how the muslims believe is partially correct, when osama and his bunch were active in afghanistan, he taught that they were suprime, and that all that opposed their ways should end in death.  But the real muslims shi'a and the sunni are the real islamic supporters who still are uncorrupted.  And yes in a way it is just like vietnam (also called the Second Indochina War) all over again.  When swampfox comes on and reads this might agree or disagree.

Quote from a website "In 1975, shortly before the end of the war, the Communist Khmer Rouge seized power in Cambodia after a bloody civil war. This led to a genocide known as the "Killing Fields" that collectively killed some 1.7 million people (possibly even more), one-fifth of the country's population. A month after taking power, Khmer Rouge soldiers seized the SS Mayaguez, a U.S. merchant ship, which resulted in a military response from President Ford, who ordered air strikes on Cambodian oil installations and the landing of troops at Koh Tang Island, where it was believed the crew was being held. The ship was seized and the crew repatriated (see Mayaguez Incident) but a significant number of U.S. casualties occurred at Koh Tang. The Khmer Rouge were driven from power in 1979, when Vietnam invaded and installed a pro-Vietnam 'puppet' government."

Sounds kinda familar eh?

[marine13]

so really then ICEMAN what do you want us to do go aaaaw fuk it the muslims/radicals wants us all to die or convert to there religion so lets do it fuk america and change it to a muslim nation or just lets kill our selfs and save them trouble really. What the hell can we do other then deal with it or take action loose a few troops. Geting into religion HOW DO WE KNOW THAT ISLAM/ muslim religion is coorect religion HOW DO WE KNOW the most famous and most famously veiwed religion is correct. All i know is there must be a higher being then us or there must be a spirtiull world cause how would the existance of a god/ gods be so veiwed in the world.

[marine13]

when i say most famous and most famously viewed i mean the christian religion.

[*MAFIA* Bonehead]

Muslim is not the correct religion, any religion that calls for you to kill people is satans religion.

[marine13]

bonehead its amazing how you summed that all up in one sentenced and are right to how can you kill someone and be in heaven automatically.

[marine13]

but as in like killing them for not following your views.

[*MAFIA* KrautKiller]

I swear you have no clue what your talking about...  

QUOTE  "marine13when i say most famous and most famously viewed i mean the christian religion"

Its not the most famous religion yet alone the most viewed... Buddism and hinduism is the biggest and most practiced in the world so get your religions straight.  And...

QUOTE "so really then ICEMAN what do you want us to do go aaaaw fuk it the muslims/radicals wants us all to die or convert to there religion so lets do it fuk america and change it to a muslim nation or just lets kill our selfs and save them trouble really. What the hell can we do other then deal with it or take action loose a few troops. Geting into religion HOW DO WE KNOW THAT ISLAM/ muslim religion is coorect religion HOW DO WE KNOW the most famous and most famously veiwed religion is correct. All i know is there must be a higher being then us or there must be a spirtiull world cause how would the existance of a god/ gods be so veiwed in the world."

Well lets see whats wrong with some of that!  OH wait all of it!  They could care less about us converting to their religion,  and you dont see them taking the fight to our soils do you?  Yes thats right!  They are only trying to win back their country.  Islam, catholism, judaism, and christians are all centered around the one and all mighty god, as long as you believe that this one almighty god, has granted you access into your final resting place, where ever it could be, then that is the right religion.

Also when I say fight to our own soils, i dont mean the osama regime, which was the only reason we should be in the middle east at this point time

[ICEMAN]

alright... stop being so narrow-minded right now, no joke.  Why do you think the Muslim's feel that way?  Do you remember anything about my little talk on the use of the word "crusade"?  Christians have abused the hell out of the Muslim religion, it's no wonder they have a gripe.  Now, maybe you're saying, this goes back 1000 years, so they should stop crying about it.  This is the same way that Northern Ireland works.  William of Orange was it, invaded, took over, etc etc... and then the conflicts have been passed on by the generations, loyalist Ulster vs. the IRA.  The Middle East, has been taken over many times over by Christian whites of Europe.  Right there, you have a gripe, your rulers are Christian, and all your citizens are Muslim.  Take that one step further, where the rulers bring in missionaries and start to push Christianity on you.  With that history, if I were Muslim, I'd have an itching to kill myself a damn Christian too.


Everyone needs to stop thinking from this one-sided view.  You think you get it both ways, but you're not even close.  What's even more hypoctrical, is the fact that you're talking down on Muslim's for believing that they are a superior race... while in turn, basically supporting the fact that Christians American's are superior.  I'm failing to see the difference in the high and mighty thing, other than a name and race.

Speaking of Christians who think you should die if you aren't the same, what about the KKK?  The Ku Klux Klan is indeed, a Christian organization.  They target blacks, other minorities, and are extremely anti-semitic.  They believe that Christian whites are the superior race, and that all others should die.  Considering I see the same views on this forum, I don't think any of you have any basis to say someone else can't claim the same concept.  That's just hypocritical.


Now please note, I'm a devout atheist.  Atheist doesn't mean that I hate anybody who has a belief in God, but rather that I look at everyone who does as equal.  I guess I'm a medium in this sort of situation.