*MAFIA* Forums

Well, where to start. I don't play this game anymore, but was invited to look at this forum - to look at this particular thread - and to give my thoughts.

Interesting, it is, perhaps. Anyways, where to start the scrutiny... because it's all about being correct is it not? It's all about being "better", because... well why is that? Is it that we have nothing better to do? Is it because we find significance in being able "to own" others thereby proving how much better we are. For in being better we are more worthy, and to be worthy is to be... what we desire... ??? Why do we desire to be worthwhile? To be significant? Perhaps dancing with shadows is fine and dandy, but eventually, one must move into dancing with the shadow-caster else one may miss the point of it all.

So GWAR, on to some finer points. May both our eyes be opened to what is, and what is not.

[COLOR="DarkOliveGreen"]I'm not opposed to homosexuality on biblical grounds like you are. I find my own asshole disgusting and can only imagine what another man's asshole must be like.[/COLOR]

I have friend, some Sigma Chi out of Troy, that gets disgusted whenever he thinks about eating. The very act of mastication just bothers him, like something gnawing at the back of his neck. But all that to point to the very subjective existence that we move through. The great question is: "How do I know all this is real? How do I know that I'm not in a coma somewhere imagining all this is real?" And can anyone ever really answer that in any definitive way? At least in any way that adheres to a semblance of anything absolute?  

[COLOR="darkolivegreen"]I don't believe in a book that tells me to stone homosexuals to death.[/COLOR]

Is it the book? Or is there a context. Citing Romans (1:32 is it) doesn't get one out of the boat just yet...

[COLOR="darkolivegreen"]there is a higher standard(jeeeeeeeeesus!) that you're held to.[/COLOR]

...

[COLOR="darkolivegreen"]If you watch a sports team with a homosexual player, and in all likelihood you probably do, yes, you're paying his salary. You're paying his salary by watching the commercials, you're paying his salary by looking at the advertisements in the field, you're paying his salary by buying a ticket to the game or buying team merchandise. If you want to rationalize it away, be my guest, however I will always be here to remind you of your hypocrisy.[/COLOR]

Please point me to the true meaning of your statement, but I'm taking it that Beetlejuice supports Homosexuality because he watches a sports team (that has a homosexual player on it) play and watches the commercials, etc, etc. Hence why you said you were here to remind him of his hypocrisy, right? Serisouly though, do you really believe what you wrote here, or am I missing something?  By this reasoning then if I breathe air I support homosexuality. Because gays breathe air. Because gays live on the same planet as me. Etc, etc.

Wait. That's faulty logic. Now you see what I don't understand your post of watching sports teams that may have a homosexual player thereby that entails supporting a homosexual "agenda".

[COLOR="darkolivegreen"]He's a good musician, and hes also been a homosexual advocate his entire life. His fans have enabled him to wield more power than he would normally have had if he were a John Doe queer, and he's used his bully pulpit for a number of queer causes. So yes, you share some culpability in providing him with a life and a platform that he probably wouldn't have had as a 'normal' queer.[/COLOR]

Once again - in this thinking I suppose Democracy in general is to blame, and we should become Fascists. Not that Fascism is bad, per se, but that people are, as a general rule, bad and that's it's easier to be bad as a Fascist. (I almost want to believe that you aren't sure what you are writing here.)

[COLOR="darkolivegreen"]As for stoning homosexuals in the bible, I passed over it as irrelevant. Would you like me to start pointing out things that you ignore and/or choose to evade? But since you insist, here you go. You might need some scope to get the taste of foot out of your mouth. Of course, you probably go to a touchy feely feel good church, and they don't cover the meaner bits of the bible. Isn't historical revisionism wonderful? You don't even have to follow what you claim to believe.[/COLOR]

I've always wondered that to. People try to make Noah's Ark and the flood a children's story, when it by all means is not. People dying left and right, drowning... probably some dude saw the boat and ran to it and scratched away at the door, but no one opened it... In fact, the "good" people are revealed, as portrayed in the OT, as never really being good at all. They may, actually, be portrayed as people really are... Some have good intentions, like Ur in reaching out to stop the Ark of the Covenant from falling to the ground only to be struck down by God for touching what he had no right to touch. Yes, regardless that his intention was to stop something "holy" from falling to the ground. Which, being learned like yourself, should point out that good intentions are not the definitive grade for man. What did you say again, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". But have you gone deeper than that or are you still dancing with the cast shadows?

[you quote Lev 20:13]

You did not keep going. If a man sleeps with a woman while she is having her period, then he shall be cut off from his people. Incestuous relations are the same, et al. But I think even reading a few more passages might illuminate what is "more than meets the eye".

Lev 20:25-26

You shall therefore separate the clean beast from the unclean, and the unclean bird from the clean. You shall not make yourselves detestable by beast or by bird or by anything with which the ground crawls, which I have set apart for you to hold unclean. You shall be holy to me, for I the LORD am holy and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine.

Perhaps there was a purpose, and this purpose is alluded to only a few short verses later.

[COLOR="darkolivegreen"]That is from the KJV. There are other versions of the bible(how can there be so many versions of god's word?) [/COLOR]

So many "versions" of God's word? First, are you pointing that out as fallacy? Couldn't anyone say in response: "That's the same as getting uptight that different people have translated Homer's Iliad into English in different ways. Some prefer Robert Fagles, because he's a tradionalist, but I prefer Lombardi, because his language is more contemporary - and the D-Day landing cover brings it more to life." So are you getting at the different languages, or styles, or what are you even getting at?

[COLOR="darkolivegreen"]As for me without a savior, my race is my religion, and my skin is my uniform. You lie there crying for jesus, and I'll depend on my self. Lets see who helps faster. [/COLOR]

I'm not understanding the "authority" or "knowledge" you seem stand on. Maybe I'm just assuming from all that you've written and that you may be knowledgable with some Scripture. Beetlejuice told me that you've read the Bible (cover to cover, twice, before age 12). So let's refer back to it.

Let's start simple and see where we go from there. (And I'm not trying to be an ass about it.)

Ephesians 2:8-9  
   [COLOR="Blue"]For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.[/COLOR]

2 Corinthians 3:5-10
   [COLOR="blue"]Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, (6) who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (7)  Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, ( will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? (9) For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. (10) Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it.[/COLOR]  

1 Corinthians 1:27-31
   [COLOR="blue"]But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; (28) God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, (29) so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. (30) He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. (31) Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."[/COLOR]

I'm hoping a theme was at least partially established that is self-evident. You say you will be "self-dependent". That's great. It's good to be aware of self. It's good to have integrity. The point is that all that amounts to is what happened to Ur with the ark of the covenant. If you stand on your works, you will be judged by your works. The illustration of the Bible, both OT and NT, is that all your "righteous" works are "filthy rags" before God. Not just yours because sometimes you're an asshole, but your's, mine, Fred, Bob, Wilma's, everyone. You know how we know filthy rags are a bad thing? It's not because some nickel and dime preacher in an equally nickel and dime pulpit said so, but because God, in the OT, spoke of these filthy, or menstrual, rags as being "unclean" - or that which "seperates" from that which is "set apart" or holy.

GWAR, seriously, there's always someone smarter. There's always someone more versed, more well read, fancier, smarter, blah blah blah blah. I'm not saying that I am any of those things compared to you, what I am saying is that the Position of Jesus will never be sufficient to maintain Faith in Jesus. Only the PERSON of Jesus can do that. As as with all people, all relationships, they don't always make sense, they don't follow a text book outline (unless you really, really, really, simplify it) - because that's life. If you want to be a jackass, that's great. Take a number. There's at least a billion on the planet (and yeah, I'll be right in line with you). But no one really gives a shit. And you know that - or, you should.  

I am however saying that the Bible is a bit of a story. There's a beginning, a lot of exposition, of lot of so-called "facts" and numbers and citations. But there is a climax. There is a d'enouement. There is an ending. Don't mistake the forest for the tree, or vice versa.

God promises in the old testament (Hosea), that no longer will the people call Him "Baal", but they call call Him "My Husband". Baal is another word for god - with a little "g". Now all those NT kids like to speak about being in relationship with God - with Jesus. Jesus points out that love is the key. But the Greek word doesn't always translate well into English since we trash our language so. So maybe a better adverb is needed. Add "passionately" to that. To passionately love God and to passionately love other people. What a calling, what a calling indeed.

For everyone else in this forum, sorry to have used up your space and message board. Blame Beetlejuice.

Shalom,
-wolfe