*MAFIA* Forums
*MAFIA* => General => Topic started by: *MAFIA* Dune Surfer on August 24, 2009, 04:26:50 AM
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Discuss...
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state your basis for this statement...
Evidence or more accurately the lack of
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im catholic so im gona have to say no....
however i can compramise
santa is fictional as hell
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Not this old chestnut again...
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if you think about it everyone knows santa, a fictional character who gives presents to children, is fake, but christians are willing go to great lengths to prove that moses could split the sea and jesus could make wine turn into water and blah blah blah. i'd say there is about equal evidence for both.
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Let me ask you, where did the first spot of matter come from for the Big Bang? (I'll assume you believe in it). Was it just always there? How is that having less faith than believing in a God, especially when it seems to contradict the laws of science (Namely the law of conservation of mass/energy). Mass/Energy cannot be created or destroyed, so how would some come to be?
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oh god, waffleboy has joined the discussion now lol.
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^Lol maybe i'll copy that whole post and paste it.
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FYI, The "Big Bang" theory was changed to the "Big BOUNCE" theory some time ago.
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FYI, The "Big Bang" theory was changed to the "Big BOUNCE" theory some time ago.
"Big Boob" theory? Yes, plz.
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Let me ask you, where did the first spot of matter come from for the Big Bang? (I'll assume you believe in it). Was it just always there? How is that having less faith than believing in a God
God and Jesus are two different arguments but I have to say I don't believe in God either.
If you relate God to the big bang your associating the creation of a whole universe, billions of suns and stars over Trillions of years with just one entity who decided out of the blue to spawn some hippy who thought he could save the world who supposedly lived just 2000 years ago called Jesus conveniently just on our planet.
I can't explain the beginnings of the universe but I think it would be kinda arrogant and naieve considering the size and diversity of the universe to assume it was created by one white bearded, cloak wearing old man who sent his only son into a world of pain to teach us humanity.
Even if the story of Jesus was true its completely outdated and un-comparable to the genocides, tortures and atrosities that happen all the time in this day an age. They say Jesus died for our sins, well 100's of thousands of people die every week in much worse surcumstances.
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Might need just a brush up on the spelling there Dune...However I strongly side with you. And rather than type a whole paragraph, it's as simple as, where is the proof of Jesus? Or of God?
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Our "God" could be an alien from another galaxy, and that could be why we haven't seen god since its mentioning in the bible. He could have died ages ago.
Jesus could have been half alien, allowing him powers listed in the bible. The staff moses had, could have been given to him by the "god".
It sounds stupid, but there's an entire universe full of planets that could host smarter beings.
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God left along time ago..........i f god listend to prayers then why the fuck allow hunger, disease, murder.and the worst of all...allow a baby to breath air then take its life with cancer....fail .religion is what u want to believe who is to say that some nigger didnt start a Random story and called it a religion and morons followed making it as strong as it is...
i say Their is a superior being but its just not who we were told it is.......with that said judge me or dispute it as we all do....but how many of u truly believe Jesus looked like a homo and god is a light up above....
FAIL
religion is what u want i think it is all
FAKE BS
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Might need just a brush up on the spelling there Dune...However I strongly side with you. And rather than type a whole paragraph, it's as simple as, where is the proof of Jesus? Or of God?
That's my point exactly, you ask that, but what do you believe in (as in creation of the universe and life)? Where is the undeniable proof of it? Prove right now that you are not in a dream and that everybody else in the universe isn't made up by your mind. Impossible, isn't it? It's the same kind of question people ask religious people, but they don't accept that there may not be an answer.
Dune Surfer, when you say many people since then have died, you're missing the central point in christian theology that Jesus lived without sin, that's why his death carried power.
Nitro & dune, another main point of Christian theology is that we live in a fallen world. God gives us the choice to choose evil, and we all do, which leads to the pain, chaos, genocide, etc. etc.
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Dune Surfer, when you say many people since then have died, you're missing the central point in christian theology that Jesus lived without sin, that's why his death carried power.
You can hardly accuse all the people starving to death in Africa of being guilty of living with sin. Their deaths don't carry any power, no-one preys to them but their lives and deaths were alot worse than Jesus's. Why don't you worship them as martyrs?
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You can hardly accuse all the people starving to death in Africa of being guilty of living with sin. Their deaths don't carry any power, no-one preys to them but their lives and deaths were alot worse than Jesus's. Why don't you worship them as martyrs?
God put us in charge of taking care of each other, we are our Brothers' keepers. God doesn't perform miracles to make lives better, we do.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/mudshark66/DMOTIV8/atheisttoast.jpg)
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Dune....I cannot not nor will not be able to convince you that Jesus and God are real. Only God can reveal himself to you. There are many reasons to not logically believe in something you cannot see. That is what faith is all about..believi ng in something you cannot see. I do believe and base my whole life on it. But until you are reconciled... you will struggle with disbelief. Why is it that you question? Why Jesus...why not Buddha or Mohammed or Dali Lama or Joseph Smith...all of whom claim some sort of prophet status. In order to know for yourself, I suggest you pickup a Bible and begin reading. Read a New Living Translation so you can understand the meaning of words originally written in Greek and Hebrew. The book isnt written like a novel. Start with Romans in the New Testament. It was written by Paul, a Jew who hated Christians until he was reconciled. He was a lawyer so the book is written like a legal brief answering questions from Jews and non-Jews of that time. This is one of my favorites: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith." For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousnes s of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousnes s because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."
The idea of the thread was to find out if anyone had any real evidence of his existence. We were playing the name game on vent and someone said Jesus. I said thats not allowed because thats a fictional character not a real person and Beatle was like WTF? of course he was real person there's evidence and Manowar agreed with him. If the best people can come up with is you've got to have blind faith then sorry but Jesus is still disallowed in the name game.
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The idea of the thread was to find out if anyone had any real evidence of his existence. We were playing the name game on vent and someone said Jesus. I said thats not allowed because thats a fictional character not a real person and Beatle was like WTF? of course he was real person there's evidence and Manowar agreed with him. If the best people can come up with is you've got to have blind faith then sorry but Jesus is still disallowed in the name game.
There is no evidence that Jesus was a profit, or had any powers and could preform miracles... However, there is more than enough evidence to show that he did exist so he's back in the name game.
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I think god give weak minded people a reason for living and to do good. They need to believe that all the good they do on earth has a purpose. Religion is a bunch of shit!!! Pray to someone or something that you have no proof exists, and on top of that go to church, and all the other time wasted on doing things you think he will approve of. THAT IS JUST BULLSHIT AND A WASTE OF FUCKING TIME. Life is to short to waste it on dumb shit. If you want to beleive, more power to you, but I believe in the tangeable.
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i'm perfectly happy not having a religion, but not being atheist at the same time.
A jehovah witness at work (who i've known since middle school) asked me "if you don't pray to god and don't ask for forgiveness, then you cannot go to heaven. Aren't you afraid of that?"
My answer was of course not...why would i be afraid of going to a place i don't believe in? Besides, i haven't murdered anyone or beaten the shit out of homeless blind orphans or anything, i don't think i need to ask for forgiveness.
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Ok, so he was an actual PERSON!!! Do you pray to Bonehead just because he may have done something good in his life, NO. Everyone does something good, all Jesus is the oldest cult leader. He is a glorified David Koresh. Nothing more, and nothing less! Closed!!!
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Many people have said the same exact thing, and a lot of them devoted their life to Christianity before the end of their life...I'm sure there wasn't any reasoning behind it. Just blind stupidity.
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Nobody has yet answered my question that they cannot prove their beliefs (even if they are atheistic and not religious) but still require Christians to prove beyond all doubt that God is real. Very hypocritical if you ask me. And as for the statement that there is no evidence for Christianity, how about the bible? How about the hundreds of thousands or millions of people who have felt God interact in their life? Why throw out all these sources?
And if anyone has the time to read something long, here's a copy of something I posted over on the foxes forums:
To be honest I don't understand Atheism; in my opinion it is in itself a religion, a religion based on science.
It includes some things that define religion
*A creation and meaning of life
*A way of living (this way is choose your own way of living, whether moral or amoral)
*It does not include a focus of worship which some might say defines a religion, however other religions, Deism being a prime example, do not either and yet they are considered religions.
Atheism also, in my opinion, takes just as much faith as a religion like Christianity.
Most Atheists would believe in the Big Bang Theory, which is that everything started from a single point of mass/energy that then expanded into what is now the universe. However, I would ask where you think that point came from, to which there are basically two answers.
1. It has always been there.
This to me is confusing, as I do not understand why thinking that a point of mass/energy has always existed is reasonable while saying it is impossible that a God has always existed. While more mundane and reasonable on the surface, both faith in religion and faith in Atheism believe that something has always been there that the individual hasn't seen and can't prove or explain. To me, they both are having an equal amount of faith, yet Atheists often scorn those who follow other religions for their faith (in general, not anyone here in particular).
2. It was not always there but appeared at a specific time.
This is easily dismissed as it seems to violate the very laws of science that I feel Atheists believe in. The Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy states that mass-energy cannot be created or destroyed in a physical or chemical reaction. Even in a nuclear reaction, Mass-energy can only be converted into its other form (as stated in Einsteins famous equation) and cannot be created from nothing or destroyed from nothing.
An argument to this might be that there are other scientific reactions that we as of yet do not know about, but again, you are having faith in something that you have no proof exists or will exist and that you cannot see. This is sounding a lot like religion to me.
Most Atheists would also probably agree with the Theory of Evolution and natural selection. Earth has a rich diversity of life of many forms and types, yet several planets we have sent probes to and none of the many planets we have observed from Earth have shown any evidence of life.
One could argue that Earth has a more favorable climate than any other planets we have observed, but if so, why didn't the theoretical life that could have existed on all these planets adapt to the climates of these planets?
Another common argument is that there are an infinite number of planets, so is it likely that we will find life on ones near to us? This however, is probably false. Relativistic physics suggests that the universe is actually curved much like the surface of a sphere so that there is a finite number of planets (the curve being caused by the presence of four dimensional objects in the three dimensional plane of space-time). Additionally, most of space is just that: empty space with nothing in it, including planets. The number of planets we cannot see looks much smaller when seen from this perspective.
There is also the issue of Irreducible Complexity, which essentially is that for life to have developed via natural selection, it would first need to make the small components of an animal for instance and built up. So it would have started with the cells. However, cells themselves are made up of organelles, which all have specific functions and work together to let the cell function, yet would have no purpose on their own, and hence shouldn't exist based on natural selection. This flaw is present from the most basic forms of life to the most complex of animals.
*Note* I am not dismissing the theory of evolution, I am merely commenting that it seems unlikely, at least without divine influence.
Now, to answer hell's points in the OP of this discussion (or point really because one was inductive based on his own experiences and difficult to contradict).
Quote from Hellraiser:
"I don't believe in this "God" you speak of. I have seen to much death and destruction. How can a thing/"creator" do this to the things he created and loves."
People have essentially said the answer in the post (though usually disparagingly). God is infinitely just and gives every person the opportunity to make their own choices in life, even if the choices are destructive for themselves or the people around them. God loved the things he created so much that he allows them to make their own choices, even if it leads to "death and destruction."
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It sounds stupid, but there's an entire universe full of planets that could host smarter beings.
Sooner or later we're going to find another planet that supports life, just based on numbers and logic.
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(http://i30.tinypic.com/a1tppw.jpg)
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You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will
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1) Waffle, I don't even have the patience to read all that shit you typed.
2) If all those things in the Bible, stated as sins, are truly sins, then everyone is going to Hell.
3) There is no proof they exist, only proof that they don't, so stfu.
And is for the Earth and how it became, no one cares because this topic is about Jesus. If you want to make a topic on the Big Bounce or Bang whatever you want to call it, go for it.
I win.
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Rofl you being lazy does not make you win a debate, sorry. Anyway, just read the first part and answer that.
"If all those things in the Bible, stated as sins, are truly sins, then everyone is going to Hell."
That just shows ignorance in Christian doctrine, the central point is that yes everyone sins but Jesus' death is a sacrifice that, if we believe in him and ask for forgiveness, will give us forgiveness.
"There is no proof they exist, only proof that they don't, so stfu."
You have shown ZERO proof that they don't. You may have claimed that there is no evidence for it, but this is probably because you aren't actually reading the posts.
Instead of responding to my points, you just gave the same generic answers that people give, so sorry but you do not win ;)
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i'm perfectly happy not having a religion, but not being atheist at the same time.
A jehovah witness at work (who i've known since middle school) asked me "if you don't pray to god and don't ask for forgiveness, then you cannot go to heaven. Aren't you afraid of that?"
My answer was of course not...why would i be afraid of going to a place i don't believe in? Besides, i haven't murdered anyone or beaten the shit out of homeless blind orphans or anything, i don't think i need to ask for forgiveness.
Me, being a JW as well, dont think that guy knows what he's talking about. As JW we don't believe in going to heaven, only a certain amount of chosen people get to go there, to govern w/ Jesus. As for the rest of us, our fate as humans is to live everlasting life on earth, not in the sky. I'm not trying to push my beliefs on anyone, even if I do go out weekly out preaching the word in the bible, if you simply say "sorry i'm not interested" that is all to it. I won't push my foot in your door telling you, that you will go to hell or anything lol. Only reason we keep going is because you never know if someone might have changed their views.
That is all.
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i dont like religion, but i think that if there was no religion the world would either be far more advanced, or far more in shit.
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People, especially the weak, need hope in times of hardship. For many, that hope is that someday they will spend eternity in Heaven, the perfect paradise. I'm religious. I believe in God and Jesus. Rip on religion all you want, but in times of peril, you may see even the most scientific people begging and praying for a miracle. Even non religious soldiers wounded on in the field tend to yell out to god for help. I'm not here to change minds, just show my beliefs.
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Rofl you being lazy does not make you win a debate, sorry. Anyway, just read the first part and answer that.
"If all those things in the Bible, stated as sins, are truly sins, then everyone is going to Hell."
That just shows ignorance in Christian doctrine, the central point is that yes everyone sins but Jesus' death is a sacrifice that, if we believe in him and ask for forgiveness, will give us forgiveness.
"There is no proof they exist, only proof that they don't, so stfu."
You have shown ZERO proof that they don't. You may have claimed that there is no evidence for it, but this is probably because you aren't actually reading the posts.
Instead of responding to my points, you just gave the same generic answers that people give, so sorry but you do not win ;)
Actually it does Waffle. Spending excess energy on such a debate is not how I typically use my time.
:]
And my proof that they don't exist is just what you said, that there is no evidence that they DO exist. Who wrote the Bible? Where is there proof of all this? It cannot be proven that Jesus nor God is real, as well as proof for this fact of Jesus' death being a sacrifice that is worth the planet's population's sins. How do we know he's even dead? If there is a Jesus or God, how do we know they're not roaming the Earth now with their powers?
Bad Waffle.
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i dont like religion, but i think that if there was no religion the world would either be far more advanced, or far more in shit.
Advanced? Not really. Without hope, ppl would go out there and do whatever the hell they wish.
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Actually it does Waffle. Spending excess energy on such a debate is not how I typically use my time.
:]
And my proof that they don't exist is just what you said, that there is no evidence that they DO exist. Who wrote the Bible? Where is there proof of all this? It cannot be proven that Jesus nor God is real, as well as proof for this fact of Jesus' death being a sacrifice that is worth the planet's population's sins. How do we know he's even dead? If there is a Jesus or God, how do we know they're not roaming the Earth now with their powers?
Bad Waffle.
Wow, that was fucking stupid... No need to even reply.
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Advanced? Not really. Without hope, ppl would go out there and do whatever the hell they wish.
which is why i conveniently added, "or far more in shit" lol. but if there was no religion, then perhaps more of us would spend more time looking into how humans work, where we came from, where we go after death, and what it is that finally kills a person or brings them to life.
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If you want to believe in god, then go ahead. If you don't want to believe in god, then go ahead. Who cares???
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If you want to believe in god, then go ahead. If you don't want to believe in god, then go ahead. Who cares???
LOL, i'm on the same page as you roshan. I just don't get it either
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LOL, i'm on the same page as you roshan. I just don't get it either
MG and Dune just like starting fights.
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which is why i conveniently added, "or far more in shit" lol. but if there was no religion, then perhaps more of us would spend more time looking into how humans work, where we came from, where we go after death, and what it is that finally kills a person or brings them to life.
I'm pretty sure about everyone here has taken a biology class and already knows the answers to all of those questions without implying their religious beliefs...What we should be looking into is how we can survive longer by curing more diseases, preparing for catastrophic events, etc.
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Actually it does Waffle. Spending excess energy on such a debate is not how I typically use my time.
:]
And my proof that they don't exist is just what you said, that there is no evidence that they DO exist. Who wrote the Bible? Where is there proof of all this? It cannot be proven that Jesus nor God is real, as well as proof for this fact of Jesus' death being a sacrifice that is worth the planet's population's sins. How do we know he's even dead? If there is a Jesus or God, how do we know they're not roaming the Earth now with their powers?
Bad Waffle.
Lol you clearly have still not read any of my previous post, so I'll copy and paste a bit of it to the end of this one.
"And my proof that they don't exist is just what you said, that there is no evidence that they DO exist."
That does not disprove anything. With that logic, you could claim that nothing in science, math, literature, or any other field will ever be discovered again because there is no proof at the moment that they exist.
"Who wrote the Bible?"
The bible was inspired by God and written down by a number of people, including Moses, David, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul.
"Where is there proof of all this? It cannot be proven that Jesus nor God is real, as well as proof for this fact of Jesus' death being a sacrifice that is worth the planet's population's sins."
I'll copy my previous post to reply to this, as it points out that asking that kind of question is hypocritical in the extreme (unless anyone cares to reply to it and prove me wrong?).
Dymdez's quote:
"Might need just a brush up on the spelling there Dune...However I strongly side with you. And rather than type a whole paragraph, it's as simple as, where is the proof of Jesus? Or of God?"
My Response:
"That's my point exactly, you ask that, but what do you believe in (as in creation of the universe and life)? Where is the undeniable proof of it? Prove right now that you are not in a dream and that everybody else in the universe isn't made up by your mind. Impossible, isn't it? It's the same kind of question people ask religious people, but they don't accept that there may not be an answer."
"How do we know he's even dead?"
Since you do not believe, I'll assume the "we" is referring to Christians, who DO NOT believe that Jesus is dead, so there is no point answering this.
"If there is a Jesus or God, how do we know they're not roaming the Earth now with their powers?"
Again, I have never made a claim to this. But I do not believe it is true because the Christian Bible does not say that he is, but that he will be.
Try actually answering my points this time please :)
I'm not trying to start a fight or impose my religion on anyone, it's a free choice or it's not religious at all. I'm merely defending my religious beliefs, and I enjoy a good debate :)
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Some proof of the blible are the Dead Sea Scrolls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls). Not sure what other Christians believe, but I see myself as a Christian, since after all, a Christian is a follower of Christ.
For those who believe in Evolution, take a look at yourselves, the human body, its complexity. Could that really create itself? The base of life is made upon creation, we create things, we create everything we use, paper, computers, cars, gasoline, we even create more of ourselves (babies, for the slow ones here). Just with some of the things that happen in this world, not sure why you wouldn't believe in a supreme being.
As for most of the things that are told in the bible, they have happened as historians have found. For example, remains of Solomon's Temple. There is lots to still know and research from things that are in the Middle East.
I guess one day we'll all know what the truth is :)
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I'm pretty sure about everyone here has taken a biology class and already knows the answers to all of those questions without implying their religious beliefs...What we should be looking into is how we can survive longer by curing more diseases, preparing for catastrophic events, etc.
my point is what happens after we die lol. and its always been debated about whether or not our body is a living community working together, or one whole organism made up of different parts. i'm curious about what death is like, but i'll still give up a hell of a fight before dying!
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Penis
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Penis
Penis indeed.
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Jesus is dead so who gives a fuck